How To Negotiate With A Venue that Says They Can’t Pay You

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Its a topic we return to time and time again on this blog. Payment. And by the way, we really loved hearing your comments in “Do You Really Expect To Get Paid” a few months ago!

My approach to payment is continually changing on a case-by-case basis…depending on whether an event is a benefit concert, a friend is asking me to do the gig, or a number of other factors. As it relates to venues and their no-pay policy, I’ve found that most places that require negotiating are the non-traditional spaces that don’t generally charge cover or see themselves more of a food service than an entertainment service.  Here are a few tips. Your suggestions are also welcome.

1. ASK FOR A PERCENTAGE OF SALES
When a venue says they can not compensate you, consider asking them to contribute a percentage of sales to you. A coffee shop near Pittsburgh used to do this and it worked great. They did not want to charge a cover for shows but held events in their store every weekend and wanted to respect the artists who played. So instead of charging patrons, they gave a percentage of each sale (coffee/sweets/sandwiches/everything), to the night’s entertainment.  It encouraged musicians to promote the show knowing that the turnout would directly affect their income for the night

2. ASK THE VENUE HOW IMPORTANT LIVE ENTERTAINMENT IS
“Do you feel like the live entertainment adds value to what your establishment is doing?” It might be direct, but it will help a booker to take a second look at you the musician. If they feel live entertainment encourages an increase in patrons, or encourages patrons to stick around longer, then it is only fair that they pay artists who are contributing to their spaces success. If they don’t feel it adds value, then why book live music?

3. UNDERSTAND A VENUE’S GOALS
I’ve come across spaces that exist, not to make money, but to offer something of value to their community. I’ve often felt that community events give life to a community and make music more meaningful. And so gigs like these might be something to consider doing pro bono. Just a thought (an opinion).

4. HELP A VENUE UNDERSTAND YOUR GOALS
Be candid and straightforward. If making music supplements your income, tell them that. Explaining this changes how they view you and how they view what they are asking you to do.

  • Syd

    What are your suggestions when they respond with “There’s a hundred other acts willing to showcase for free”?

  • http://www.joyike.com grassrootsy

    wow, good question :) Thats where you the artist take it into your own hands to build your reputation and resume to a point where interested parties know and believe you when you say you are worth being paid.

  • http://erikamay.com emay

    @ Syd – Tell them they’ll get what they pay for. Sure, there are plenty of other acts willing to showcase for free, but most of them are amateurs/beginners/kids/not very good. If they want a professional musician, and you are one, let them know you’re worth what you’re asking. Then the ball’s in their court. If they don’t respect musicians, treating them like something that can be stuck in the corner, ignored, and not compensated, then you don’t want to play there anyway.

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  • http://www.thinklikealabel.com Jordannah

    Great post.

    As a professional booker, I work out a cut at of the door charge. It is unacceptable for a club to charge people to get into a show and not pay the bands. If a club puts on free shows, then drink tickets, the allowance of bands to sell merch, and providing a tip jar will help the bands.

    Some venues are not really worth dealing with if they are going to hoard money from musicians. Touring is the number one way bands can make a living with their art. I think bands and booking agents should be selective when it comes to where they play. Having to haggle with a crap bar without an inset following is a waste of time.

    Nonetheless, your points are valid and understandible. I work closely with clubs and empathize for them because pleasing an establishment’s quotas a booker is difficult.

    Thanks.

    .jordannah
    Think Like a Label.com

  • Al

    To be honest, i think the situation is usually obvious. If you are a band who’s going to be bringing enough people througha venues doors to put them in profit for the night, you’ll know it, they’ll know it, they’ll know you’ll be charging them, its just a case of working it out (an overly complicated process filled with deception and bullshit).

    If you’re an out of town band with little to know local fanbase in the place you’re playing, you shouldn’t be expecting to get paid really. The truth is like someone said, if you don’t play for free someone else (someone shitter than you probably) will. You need to take these gigs in order to have a chance at actually BUILDING the fanbase that will eventually allow you to charge.

    Looking with disdain at a venue charging for entry but not paying you is not the right way to look at things, live music in general is poorly attended at the moment. Sure maybe they’re making a couple hundred quid the night you’re playing, what about last night when they had to pay “Megastarz band X” 2 grand and only 50 people showed up? Our local venue is glad to have a good gig because it means they can pay the water bill.

    As you say though “case by case” is without a doubt the best way to go for underground bands who i suspect are the ones reading excellent blogs like this :)

    Al
    http://www.thesunexplodes.com

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  • Ivan Skinner

    If an owner wants the musican to do the advertising and promos, that is a seperate business skill and task, and gets a separate billing. If you hire a carpenter to hang a new door, you cannot include that he also wash your dog for the same price. If you are hired to do music for an agreed price, the advertising and promos (bringing a crowd) is the washing of the dog, is a separate task, and gets a separate pay check.

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  • gbass

    I am reading all of this commemtary aand and can’t believe that any business person would look themselves in a mirror and think its ok for clubs to pull this crap. Not only am I a musician, I am in sales and know plenty about marketing and running a business. The job of marketing the venue is on the venue owner, not any vendor including bands they hire. Any bar owner who attempts to pawn off the responsibilities of marketing their venue on a band is an idiot. However, bands should be promoting their gigs as well. An acceptable ratilo of venue patrons to band patrons is 80/20 with the 80 in favor of the venue. If tbe band is anti-ing up more than 20% of the patrons the club owner is not marketing enough, if at all.

    The poster of the original pist abot clubs doing this not being in tbeir best interest has it exactly right. So many bar and club owners fail because they fall into the same trap that many of my former collegues who fail out of the insurance business.

    EVERYONE WANTS TO WIN A CHAMPIOSHIP, BUT NO ONE WANTS TO DO THE WORK IT TAKES TO GET THERE. So take heed quick fix bar owners.

  • G. Edwin Craig

    Many a musician needs to read this article! Nicely done.